God.... How it's all wrong.

I KNOW ITS A LOT TO READ BUT IT IS WORTH IT

Feel free to have your say on this after reading it.. I would love to get loads of input on this

I was reading a few posts from people who seriously believe in God, and suddenly the thought actually dawned on me that they are serious, and honestly believe this stuff so much that they would do anything they were told as long as it came from the word (Mouth) of God.

Now I don't hate people that believe in god.
I honestly believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion; however I seriously can't see how people can believe that strongly about a being that’s so flawed.



I guess, if you had to, you could call me a skeptic-agnostic.
I do not follow or hate God, but I'm not an atheist either, they believe God does not exist.
There is no doubt in their mind.
If there is, they are unknowingly agnostic.

I especially don't believe that we (human-beings) are Gods nor perfect.
Far from it.
I believe we are desperately scared, thus delusional, selfish, pervert little creatures, but that we can change! We can evolve.

Now I’m not here to tell you that all people who believe in god are wrong but I have some interesting facts that if at all possible I would like a believer to argue about and honestly try to prove me wrong.
(Keep in mind that this is not a post created to spite others or cause arguments, but rather a "healthy" debate)

The first major point that I will agree on is the fact that “IF” God does exist then you have to agree that he is All-Loving, All-Knowing and All-Powerful (ALAKAP).

The reason I say this is because every religion gives their god these attributes.
If you don't believe me then look it up, and to be fair it does seem a logical thing for a god to be.
If he didn't have all these attributes then I personally wouldn't call him a god.

Anyway I'm sure that as we ALL agree with the above statement we can continue with the facts.

• QUESTION: Is God omniscient (All-knowing)?

Well as you know we have already agreed that god is all knowing. If he wasn't then he wouldn’t be the god that everyone describes him to be.
Many people argue that he is, so for arguments sake I will agree and say God "should be" all knowing.

• PROBLEM: If God is all knowing then why does it seem like he isn’t?

Now what I mean by this is simple. (stay with me here)

God apparently knows “EVERYTHING”.
Yet he still gives us humans tests.

Let me explain:
He created Adam and Eve placed them in the Garden of Eden which had a fruit that they shouldn't eat.

Now why put that fruit there if he wasn't testing them?

He’s god, so he didn't say “Oh it seems I'm running out of room so I suppose I better plant this tree in the garden”
He placed it there for some other reason.
The reason has to be to test his creations. (What other reason could there be?) <- [Feel free to discuss this]

Now the reason any test is done is to find out the result.
We will say "If I do this, then that will happen", but we test it just to make sure.
(This is because we doubt it slightly)
If we didn't doubt it then we wouldn't test it in the first place because we would just know it to be true.

Example: I buy a new battery from a shop.
I take it out of its new box and use it. I didn't test it because I knew it would work.
(On the other hand)
I find a box of batteries in my house, I test them all because I “Don’t know” if any of them work.

So why would an all knowing God have to test Adam and Eve with the fruit?
We know that “IF” they didn't eat the fruit they would have stayed in the garden but “IF” they did eat it they would be kicked out of it.

So why would God have a scenario with two different outcomes?
If he knew what was going to happen why say this could happen OR that and then test them to see what actually will happen?

He must have doubted them slightly on what they would do with it, and to doubt something is to not know.

Hmmmm.. okay you might have a argument to that and Id like to hear it but first please read on.


Now we say he’s all knowing.
This means he knows EVERYTHING that’s happened, happening and will ever happen.

So he knows that if he places that tree with the fruit in that garden, then he knows that Eve “Will” eat it.

He's supposed to know anything anyone will do before they're even born/created.
He knows the past, present, future (because time is meaningless for him and because he is the one deciding of the course of the future) he also knows all your actions and thoughts…
HE KNOWS it ALL, right?

This means he knew Eve would eat the fruit.

Now many of you would say that we were given free will.

Okay, I like the sounds of that, sounds nice doesn't it, and to be honest even if we had free will God should still know every possible outcome right? I mean he is god.

So we have free will to do anything we please but God knows what we will do when faced with a situation.

For example:
He knows that a true believer will follow his word.
So If he said to the pope, “The planet is becoming over populated and I will have to remove half of you in order for you believers to live, but don’t worry I will only remove sinners”, he knows that the pope would be fine with that, he also knows what exact words he would have to use to get the outcome he wanted.

Perfect example is this:

• I flip a coin and "I know its going to be heads", so I shout “heads”.
• I also know that in 3 more flips of that coin it will be tails.

I say to you that I will have the last cookie if the 3rd flip from now is tails.
The coin gets flipped 3 times and its tails.
So now I have the cookie.

Now anyone that fully understands what I have just said will realize that with the ability of being all knowing you can do one thing that will assure the outcome you want.

So when god created the world and birds and light and sea, he would have created it how he wanted it to be.
Now he knew that if he made things in such a way he would then reach a stage where the future would play out how he wanted it to.

Every “free will” action you make only happens because you made that choice.
BUT you made that choice based on your previous experiences, and they happened because of things before them.
Ultimately ending up with your choice being a result of something that happened when god first created it.

So really it wasn't your choice.
You were forced to do that because what god did all those years ago made you do what you did.

If you don't understand that then try and picture this.
I child is born and will learn to talk.
The language he/she will speak is already chosen for them based on where they were born or the language of the family.
It personally doesn't have a choice.
This will then effect EVERYTHING it does in its future.



Now by this stage I have pointed out a few basic things.

God knew that if we had free will and placed that tree there we would eat the fruit, or not(They were our choices).
If the test was a test, then he isn't all knowing as he doubted the outcome (Thus he’s not actually a god).
If the test wasn't a test then he placed that tree there for a reason knowing we would eat it (Thus we have no free choice).

So.. so far we have a choice.
You can have a god that’s all knowing but we have no free will
OR
You can have free will but god doesn't know everything.
Hmmmm…


Okay.
So…

• QUESTION: Is god all loving?

Now from following the first problem we now have a few out comes and I'll talk about that in a second.

Firstly Evil…
We all know that evil exists.
Now my first question is why does it exist.

Surely “IF” god is all loving he wouldn't allow it to exist in the first place.
“IF” the reason we have evil is because we have free will and we chose to be evil then why create us with the ability to make evil choices in the first place.

God is the creator.
Not evil.
So he created us with evil inside us?
Why?

Why create something with evil if you’re not evil yourself?
Unless it was a mistake, but shouldn't he of known about the mistake and how evil will become so bad.
Remember he’s all knowing right…

So he knew that creating us with an option to be evil will eventually cause evil to grow.
But he’s all loving so why allow it to grow.


Surely “IF” he is really all loving he wouldn't have thrown us out of the garden and should have forgiven us because he knew that by placing that tree there we would eat the fruit.
Better yet, all you people that believe and worship him.. even the pope, why are you not thanked, why are you still surrounded by evil, shouldn't he remove you from this place and be loving and caring, why allow you to suffer. (Jesus suffered for your sins… so why do you still suffer?)

“IF” we have free will, and God tested and knew our outcome then he is evil by putting that fruit there and allowing us to eat it when he clearly didn't want us to.
He is then also evil for sending us to such a horrible place for doing something he know we would do anyway.

He even sent the evil snake into the garden to tempt them to eat the fruit.
(The evil that he must have created).
So knowing all of this and creating this evil, did he want Adam and Eve out of the garden?
He knew the snake would tempt them and he knew that with the fruit and snake they would end up kicked out.
He must have wanted to banish them, so much for all loving.




More?


Some Christians say:
“God knows the laws of nature perfectly so he created us in a way that suits us perfectly.” Thus the reason we have flaws and evil and “aren't perfect”. We are like we are because he made us to fit in with the laws of nature…

Well that’s a fail.
I’m sorry but why give us these evil thoughts and imperfections to fit the laws of nature when he created nature in the first place.
Why not change nature so we didn't need these thoughts etc.

Even if god had created us to fit into this world with the laws of nature why did he then create us knowing that we couldn't (or even WOULDN'T) abide by all of his rules?
It’s simply IMPOSSIBLE to any human-being to be righteous, to follow ALL the rules and NEVER SIN, to be PERFECT.
Does that seem All-loving to you?

I could ramble on for more about how he isn't all powerful otherwise he would remove all evil from the world seeing as he’s all loving and because he hasn't removed all evil he is ether not all powerful, or he is not all loving.

Seriously the list goes on for ages and I can’t see how people can believe in this other than the fact that they don’t want to feel alone.

Then again you have friends and family, how can you feel alone. If you need there to be something else then why???

I know I might of upset some people but I really don’t understand why things are looked at in such a narrow minded vision.
Again I am not having ago at the believers and If anything I would like them to even post their views and discuss this.
Because in all honestly to me god just seems to unbelievable to be true based on the facts and notes that even the believers state to us all.






Now I posted the above on my facebook to see what the responses were and well these are some of them.

Jack:
Everything I've ever thought about this, ever, summed up in one long essay thing.
One thing I'd like to point out-
"So he knows that if he places that tree with the fruit in that garden, then he knows that Eve “Will” eat it."
He also knows that if he sends his most loyal servant to the top of a mountain to sacrifice his son, they will unquestioningly follow it through. But he still did that anyway.
The reason people believe in God are-
- They don't like to believe that when they die, thats it.
- They cannot accept their lives are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
- They lack direction in life.

Me:
Here is another valid point.. We all live out life differently. I for one may commit sin every now and again, but then honestly can you name some one that doesn't?
Now ok I admit i commit a few sins here and there but I dont worry about it as they are only small things, some are greater than others but at the end of the day they are all sins. But I dont let fear of these sins rule my life.
It seems that rather than him being all loving, you actually end up fearing him, you dont want to upset him or sin and are living your whole life in constant fear.. (Argument might be, I am not afraid as I know god loves me and as I follow him he will protect me from sin) my reply would be.. sure ok... so why is it that the only reason you dont sin is so that you can get into heaven and not hell.. surely he should be all loving and allow you to just live your life.. why so many rules god? God would just be one of those mothers that doesn't allow the child to go to party's and make friends.. "Sorry I dont want you doing that and if you do ill punish you.." sorry but I would rather life my life rather than have to miss out on so many things just because someone tells me its bad.

Nathan:
Well in my opinion gods just like a Chinese whisper, I doubt he created us of even exist but we all know that everything we assume we know isn't all true.... to be honest I could just imagine someone dying and their being a big fat slob eating doughnuts and going " oh im god, now can you please get me some more doughnuts, one more thing welcome to my heaven"

Me:
I think what your saying.. correct me if I'm wrong.. is that over the thousands of years, this story of a god has been changed from what it once was to what we "believe" today.
So for all we know god could of been some powerful king who had this book wrote about him... Like you say Chinese whispers. the story could of been about a king but over the years the story has bee told in so many different ways that we now say god.
This would explain why there are many bibles and how come they are similar but different. Its like this.. I tell you a joke with a punch line.. you tell your friend the same joke but one word is different. the joke keeps getting told until eventually its completely different.

Jack:
It's a huge convoluted load of crap that over complicates things without any valid explanation or justification.
Stick to science, at least it can explain itself.

Nathan:
Alas stick to science but no Christmas presents of Easter eggs for you

Jack:
What? Christmas and Easter isn't restricted to Christianity, ya know

Nathan:
I know I was just being a prick xD, but its what it represents thats all xD

Jack:
I think the real question is "what tangible evidence is there that points towards an all- knowing, all loving, all-powerful god?"
Because, you see, there is a lot of evidence that points towards Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and the deterministic universe we live in.
Sadly, I have seen little to no strong and solid evidence to point towards the contrary (AKA Creationism), and therefore, logically, it is stupid to assume Creationism is the truth. Therefore, I MUST side with the other option.
It's that simple.

Jack:
Hey GG, does this ring a bell?
"Let's take two opposing view points.
Man on the street: 'The world is going to end in 2012 by meteor!'
Prof. on astronomy: 'There is no reason to assume the world will be destroyed by a meteor in 2012'
Instantly I stop and look at both sides.
I ask the first man for evidence, he says: 'because the mayan calendar ends in 2012'
I reply, 'yes, but that is their belief, or rather, conclusion. It does not support your statement at all. Where are your reasons.'
He gets mad and says, 'oh, you're one of those people who need reasons and hard-evidence. You're just putting the blinders on.'
I get slightly offended and go to see the professor.
He tells me, 'there has been no sighting of any object large enough to wipe out the planet instantly on that specific date. Looking at the mass and speed required and the angle necessary, we have done long and arduous experiments - and we have thus found nothing. Therefore there is no reason to believe that a meteor, asteroid or otherwise will strike on that date. The methods we have used are far more advanced than the mayans and we can be quite assured that whatever they theorized is much more of a hypothesis if not simply a blind guess. You can see the results of our experiment here, and see the following people for confirmation and corroboration. While it is possible that a meteor will strike, it is much more likely to happen in the time before and the time after the assumed date. In fact, guessing the time and method of the Earth's demise is like guessing the exact location and time of the first raindrop in the sahara desert. Such an assumption has no scientific or mathematical significance, it is simply the interpretation of texts written long before the advancement of human skepticism and scientific method. It is therefore safe to assume that the earth will not be destroyed in 2012.'
Well who would you trust?
While religious it is nigh impossible to see just how ridiculous a religion is, but while religious it is still possible to observe the outstanding success of science - except when the point of discussion is science's obvious bias towards atheism, a bias that only theists are capable of noticing."

Me:
IF god is so powerful.
Can god create a problem he cant solve?
Can he make a boulder he cant lift?
Can he win at the game?
Can he make something new that he didn't know about?
Can God stop being God or stop existing?
Can he make another God? Can He give Godhood to a man, or angel?
Can god be evil?

Jack:
There's just too many ambiguities and paradoxes where God is concerned.

Emma:
Adam and Eve has a belly button in art work. Which means....God has a uterus of some sort?

Me:
Have you ever noticed that they also look exactly like us humans of todays world.. im sure that we didnt look like this thousands of years ago... we allready have proof that we have changed over the years.. so does this mean god is a ape?? i mean we "were" made in his image.. and we WERE apes at some point... or maybe he is a single cell... so why say that adem and eve were made in gods image and that they aparently look like what we do today.. if they want to tell the story right it should be more along the lines of... Adem and eve were bothe monkeis in the garden of eden, god told them to eat the fruit. problem is although they looked like him their pre-human brain didnt fully understand and their ape instints kicked in and the eat it because they were hungry and knew no better..
I like the idea if picturing adem and eve as apes looks better :P

Emma:
And there is all sorts of art work of adam and eve....but they were apparently the first two humans so how did people ever paint them or even know they existed?!

Me:
Also.. we say they were called Adam and eve.. how do we know this.. im guessing that somehow they would of had to be able to speak in some way.. now are you seriously saying that two apes managed to come up with the first names Adan and eve, could say those names and passed their names on over the thousands of generations without it being said differently or forgotten V_V